Hon. Afam Victor Ogene, a two-term federal lawmaker and Chairman of the House Committee on Renewable Energy representing Ogbaru Federal Constituency of Anambra State in the House of Representatives, has expressed confidence that the presidential candidate of the Nigeria Democratic Congress (NDC), Peter Obi, will defeat President Bola Tinubu in the 2027 general election.
In this interview with Symphoni TV, the NDC candidate, who is seeking re-election to the House of Representatives, also discussed legislative independence, opposition politics, the G100 coalition initiative and the role of Rabiu Musa Kwankwaso in mobilising northern voters for Peter Obi.
What’s your status? Are you on the ballot next year or are you, how would I put it now? What’s happening? What’s your status?
Thank God it’s not my medical status you’re asking for. Politically, I am on the ballot as a Nigerian Democratic Congress (NDC) candidate for House of Representatives elections billed for January 16, 2027 for Ogbaru Federal constituency.
I forgot to mention that just like you said now, you are a member of the, before it was Labour and then ADC but now it is Nigerian Democratic Congress.
Yes.
So you’re returning, you’re seeking re-election as House of Representatives member?
Yes. The same seat.
Was there a primary or you were returned?
Well, there were nationwide primaries to choose our candidates as dictated by the Electoral Act 2026. But incidentally, I had no opponent in the primaries. But even at that, registered party members still needed to congregate at a venue and do what we call affirmation. And that happened in my instance because nobody picked a form to run against me.
Let’s talk about the 10th Assembly now led by Senate President Godswill Akpabio and Speaker Tajudeen Abbas. Whether you talk to the academia, whether you talk to civil society groups, whether you talk to even politicians, ordinary Nigerians as it were, the general consensus out there, whether it is true or false, is that this 10th Assembly of which you are a part of is worse than a rubber stamp. Because it has more or less become an extension or an appendage of the President Tinubu’s executive arm, which is an aberration. It is meant to be a co-equal branch of government, standing up to the excesses, to curb the excesses of the executive arm, but that has not been our lived experience. And to be fair to you, when this new realignment happened, I saw you and the Minority Leader, Hon. Fred Agbedi, come out to your inaugural statement to try and say something to the fact that you are going to assert yourself now. When I was watching that, I was like, okay, now today day break but is better late than never. But what is your own opinion? Are Nigerians wrong to feel the way we feel?
Well, if you cast your mind back, even through the judiciary, the executive arm, and now the legislature that you have talked about, each succeeding administration across these three arms of government, we have always felt a sense of deja vu regarding the immediate past occupiers of those positions. If we talk about the highest court in the land, for instance, people we talk about with nostalgia in the days of the late Justice Chukwudifu Oputa, Kayode Eso, but others succeeded them. Same thing on the executive side. Each succeeding administration appears to live in the shadows of the departed one. If you even limit it to the civilian dispensation from General Obasanjo, we had a Yar’Adua who did not last long because of ill health, a Jonathan, a Buhari, now a Tinubu. Progressively, Nigerians wish for the immediate past administration..
…never mind that they criticised it…
..at the time. So, coming to the legislature too, you get this kind of report card. But the truth of the matter is that unlike other assemblies, this assembly, the ruling All Progressives Congress (APC) has more than a simple majority. They started out with just a simple majority. But before months, you know, we saw a lot of cross-carpeting. However, they achieved that, I don’t know. But they now have over two thirds in the House of Representatives and in the Senate. And in a democracy, numbers count. Whatever you do with the numbers, it counts. In minority, it is a time-honoured maxim that the minority will have their say and the majority will have their way. And even in having their say, the voices of the majority will most likely drown the cries and calls for caution by the minority opposition.
I’ll give you an example. Only about a week ago, a federal high court struck down four important aspects of the Electoral Act 2026. It’s not as if we didn’t know about them. We spoke about it. The issue of party register, the issue of circumscribing the means and modes of choosing party candidates. We felt it was in conflict with the constitution that provides for freedom of association. But our voices were drowned. And when you have a disagreement, it’s the judiciary that should step in. So, the Nigerian people and any observer should be looking at party politics. Party politics in a democracy is largely dominated and influenced from outside parliament.
The political party in power has a huge role to play. How much so in a democracy like Nigeria’s where even the basic issue of nomination of candidates is tied to the aprons of the party leaders. And so if you don’t give in to what they want, they wait for you at the sentinel of your transition to stand election as candidate of the party.
So, this accounted for what people might or what you have just simply regarded as a rubber stamp. It’s not purely that. On the flip side, even those of us in the opposition sometimes want to also see how they work through their programmes. Because when you constitute a clog in their supposed wheel of progress, at the end of the day, they use that as an excuse why they didn’t deliver. But in this instance, you have the legislative support and I dare say even judicial support. But let me limit myself to the legislature where I operate.
With this level of support, you want to obtain loans for developmental processes. We say, go ahead. So, at the end of the day, you give your report card to the Nigerian people and that is the season we are in. So, it is for them to tell us, vis-à-vis the people, whether all the support they have gotten from that so-called rubber stamp legislature has translated into a better life for the ordinary Nigerian.
Fair point. And I love the fact that you piggyback to the previous, like the 9th Assembly for instance. The 8th Assembly under Bukola Saraki was a very radical assembly. It was an activist assembly, if I may use that term to describe it because it did check some of the excesses of the Buhari administration, especially in the first four years, 2015-2019.
And the question is, do you guys understand what the national anthem of a country is all about? They changed it in two hours. Huge loans have been approved for the executive in the same manner. I mean, electoral act was done in such a slipshod manner. And then only for you guys, one of you guys realised that. You have actually legislated your ways out of the National Assembly. I could go on and on and on. Because, of course, you know probably better than myself, your roles at National Assembly, law-making, representation and oversight, the verdict out there, not me, the verdict of Nigerians is a huge failure.
Can you say anything against this?
Well, the public cannot excuse themselves if there are any failings on the part of the 10th National Assembly. I say this because we copied our democracy from the American-type presidential system. Every legislator is held to account by the way he or she votes. Who bothers in Nigeria which way you vote? And it goes back to the very beginning of each Assembly on inauguration day. What happens? You cited the instance of the Bukola Saraki, Yakubu Dokara leadership of the 8th Assembly and you gave the answer yourself. The members voted them in. And I almost cried myself hoarse before inauguration of the 10th Assembly. From television station to newspaper houses for interviews where I was called, I was spokesman for the minority caucuses at the time, one of the spokespersons. And I reiterated the importance of legislative independence. The first duty conferred on any Assembly in Section 50 is that we should elect, in my own case, a Speaker and Deputy Speaker from among ourselves. It didn’t talk about executive interference. We were talking about all this but even the media and the public felt that well, it is our business to go and sort out. And if I ask you sitting here, how did your representative vote, whether he is even of the APC or any minority party, you wouldn’t know because for you, it doesn’t matter. It is the business of 360 persons. It shouldn’t be. We should hold, going forward, legislators to account on where they stand on every single issue so that if you don’t stand with the people, when you come for electioneering, the people should be able to remind you, on this issue, you stood this way as against what the people actually wanted. So, finally, everybody was forced to key in. And when you have a leadership that emerges that way, the people who have worked to put that leadership in place would always remind the leaders, remember that we put you there. So, I have always been for legislative independence. We could end up with the same persons. I mean, Speaker Tajudeen Abbas is a very likable personality to this day and probably tomorrow. But the mere fact that he was being chosen from outside the Assembly made some of us, you know, to revolt and we lost perks and privileges for that.
But there are no regrets. I have been at House leadership issues in the Tambuwal leadership. I worked closely with him. I was spokesman before inauguration. After inauguration, I became deputy chairman of media. For Dogara, his speakership campaign, I was head of media for the campaigns. I didn’t return as member. In 2019, I also played a role as spokesman for Mohammed Bago, who is now governor of Niger. So, you see that over a 12-year period, I have been part and parcel, not a bystander, in leadership struggles in the National Assembly.
And every Assembly that members get together and choose their leaders have always performed better.
Before we leave this point, you said something earlier on about the Labour Party then. How members were you when you got to the House?
35.
Well, there have been a lot of transitions.
You were the third largest after the APC and PDP.
Yes.
Today, how many are you?
Well, there’s been a lot of transitions and transfusions..
Don’t colour it, no sugar coating. Just say how many…
I think about a year after we got sworn in, we lost one to death from Kaduna. Ekene Adams, may God rest his soul, then the crisis in Labour Party began. For some who couldn’t stay the course, they started looking elsewhere. And then we continued until it became very clear, evidently so, that for as long as Mr Peter Obi remained in Labour Party, the electoral umpires were going to recognise the people whose tenure had expired legally. So, we had to make a move when we tried to form an all-party opposition movement. But to answer your question directly, those that came from the Labour background, about 16 of us are still in NDC. 16, okay. So, we are like four. We are now about four from the Kwankwasiya group. So, NDC has about 20, 21 persons now.
So, the original 35 Labour Party people, maybe about 19 of them, they have gone, the way Paul said it in the Bible, they have gone after the world.
Yeah, but some of them have started going and losing tickets, tried to make a U-turn.
Exactly, to come back, but it was too late. How are you going to ensure that this is not repeating? And it was because of this bandwagon effect that if Peter Obi is on the top of the tickets, any other person following would win. Because that’s what played out in 2023. So, how is the party, even though I know the party has asked you guys to swear, sign an undertaking and all of that, can you speak to this?
Well, I am close enough to know that Mr Peter Obi enjoys enormous grace and fellowship across the country, but the so-called bandwagon effect is not in totality as we push it out. In 2023 elections, I know that the Labour Party had candidates, up to about 250 candidates for House of Representatives, but in the final analysis, only 35 of them made it. Which means that while you have a head start, being on the same slate with Mr Peter Obi, you also need to do some work. You must go to your constituency. Mr Peter Obi can come, do campaigns for you and all of that, but on the day of the elections, he won’t be in your constituency. You still are left with your people. So, even those who are coming in now, yes, they are starting to enjoy parts of the popularity that Mr Peter Obi brings into the fray, but everybody must get down to work and put foot and boots on ground. Then, talking about how do we ensure that they remain, it is relative. As soon as we win the elections, I am sure that even those who didn’t run on our slate will be looking for judicial loopholes to come and join us.
Okay, you are sure you are going to win?
The jury is out.
Okay, we will get to that shortly. I like your optimism though. Give us two or three achievements of this 10th Assembly because if they are not, there will definitely be all doom and gloom. Give us one or two achievements in your own opinion. If they are not, don’t check it.
No, there are. Certainly. Even the main fact is that we even have the institution of the legislature, it is an achievement. If you take that away, then you are running an autocracy.
Let’s switch gears. What is the bone of contention between your party, NDC and INEC in terms of this cry of substitution, strange names appearing on the list published by INEC as different from what the party submitted to them? What is going on?
It is not just my party. It happens across board. Maybe my party was the first to speak up. I know a few aspirants in even the APC, even in my state. Not less than five, six House of Reps candidates or aspirants as it were and even senatorial aspirants who claim to have won on the field and then the party submitted another name and they are in court. You know when when you have such situations, the place to resolve it is the judicial. But don’t also forget that the highest court in the land, the apex court, has in a plethora of cases ruled that it is the party, the political party, that should submit, that should sponsor candidates and the only way they do that is by the chairman of the party and the secretary co-signing a letter pushing forward these names to INEC. So wherever there are disputations, I am sure that over the next few days and weeks, the judiciary will resolve it. The good thing is that it is the party that is standing election. We are just flag bearers.
So, the party continues with the campaigns.
So, if you look at the Peter Obi factor I referenced earlier, particularly in the south east zone, the party claims that the worst disruptions happened in Anambra, Kano and I think in Ekiti too. But I think Anambra and Kano are particularly interesting because those are the two regions of both the presidential candidate and Kwankwaso, the VP candidate. Do you think these strange names were planted specifically to sabotage your party’s major strongholds?
No. Everything that happened was an intraparty affair. I do not think that anybody from another party, that is not the contention. The contention is that one set said we won this primary. Some others may have also held a parallel primary so it is for the judiciary to look at the rules of the parties and determine who is the actual candidate. Like you pointed out, the sheer number of aspirants also made the process a little tardy in managing.
But was it also wise for the party management, the NWC, to have collected money from all this number of people? Shouldn’t the party have done, in management, when we do recruitments, we have a long list. Everybody who submits reviews and then we prune it down to what we call a short list. So, a long list, a short list. So maybe from a short list of maybe five, you can now say, alright, go and pay. I met some of these people, I sat down with them, who not just paid nomination fees, they also paid development fees. They will tell you nobody forced me, I paid voluntarily.
You see, I am not into party management but by privilege of my position, I should know a little about what teanspired. In the first instance, the NDC is not in power anywhere at the sub-national or the federal level. So, funds for running the party is simply not there and leaders of the party spoke with aspirants. For instance, I ran unopposed. But I also made contributions for the party’s growth and organisation. Even if I didn’t pay that money, they were not going to manufacture a candidate against me. That’s one.
Two, we are asked to buy only expression of interest forms. That was what we paid into the party accounts. It was only after candidates emerged that you are now required to even pay the nomination. So, if persons have claimed that they paid nominations, then we will need to interrogate into which accounts they paid such sums of money.
What of development fees or support for the party?
No, I just talked about that. It is free. If me that ran unopposed paid and then you are coming from the outside and they said you needed to support the party, if you don’t feel like it, you could still stand primaries. But I think that a whole lot of people felt it would also enhance their chances.
You’ve been very active in this group, G100, the body that is spearheading the coalition of presidential candidates into a formidable force, presumably to challenge President Tinubu next year. Tell us more about the true intentions of this group. There are rumours in the gravevine that the intentions are not altruistic. You can never cross a river until you get to it, then you begin to look for the bridge, whether wooden or made of steel or concrete.
Well, you can never cross a river till you get to it and then you begin to look for the bridge – whether wooden or made of steel or concrete. For us, the opposition is on one side of the aisle and the ruling APC is on the other. And this is a game that you never say never until the very end. For the G100, there are certain persons who are convinced that if we go it our separate ways, as the parties are currently constituted, that that will mean fragmenting the votes. It is that singular realisation that has pushed this G100 initiative. It might succeed, it might not succeed, it might not succeed, but in politics there is no harm in talking to ourselves. That is what we are doing. Even right from the Ibadan declaration, before we went to NDC and before Governor Seyi Makinde went to APM, there has always been this understanding. I can tell you that in 24 hours there could be a decision to say you are strong in this area, let’s support candidates of party A in this area, we have looked at the dynamics of the presidential election, we think that we should support candidate B. But all these are ongoing discussions and you don’t close the door in political negotiations.
Like you said, 24 hours in politics is a long time.
It is a long, long time. Anything might happen and it changes even the whole dynamics. So it is better you keep talking.
And what is politics if not the art of talking..
Compromise, negotiation, trade-offs. I agree with you.
The inaugural meeting, the first meeting you guys held about two weeks ago, it was a beamed live and I watched it. But then, conspicuously absent were the only people, without any disrespect to others, whether the main or leading or foremost presidential candidates, former VP Atiku Abubakar of the ADC, Mr Peter Obi of the NDC, of course, Omoyele Sowore of AAC, were not there. Conspicuously.
Were you expecting them at that forum?
Why not?
No.
Donald Duke was there. Adebayo of SDP was there.
You just talked about the big two.
Yes.
You yourself just talked about the big two. Yes, and I said without disrespect to others. In African methodology and traditions, customs and ethos, the big masquerade does not show up at every single event because you have the smaller masquerades, who will be, you know, entertaining guests. Usually in Igbo land, the big masquerade only comes out, and once he comes out…
Is it not validated that you are calling them small masquerades?
I didn’t call anybody, but the numbers should speak. If you want to know who are the big two, check the numbers, at least of the previous elections, and even gauge the public mood, you will know. So, I do not think, what agreement has been reached for them to come there and sit? I was there, I read the communique at the end of the day. So, ditto people from ADC, my friend, Hon. Abdulsamad Dasuki of the ADC, he was there, he played a prominent role, continues to. So, we are there and reporting back to our principals. I did not expect them, you know, to be at such fora.
The APC, what they are saying is that the absence of these gentleman means this whole G100 is dead on arrival. That’s the way they are framing the narrative.
Well, that means they are even bothered by the mere fact of their coming together of the G100. And if they feel that there is nothing to worry about, they should not even speak to it.
So, you are not bothered that they are concerned or they are not?
They should be concerned with selling their candidpate and telling us, answering some of the hard questions Nigerians are asking.
2023, a certain Prophet Isa El Buba, based in Plateu State, Jos. He was a vocal, very vociferous supporter and backer, campaigner for Mr Peter Obi of the Labour Party then. 2026, he has switched allegiance to Prince Adewole Adebayo of the Social Democratic Party. I saw him. He was there at the unveiling of the manifesto, publicly endorsed Adewole Adebayo and gave reasons why he has left Peter Obi and all of that.
Not just Adewole Adebayo, not only Isa Ebuba, a couple of others. What’s going on? Even the charismatic bishops’ conference. They held their public event last week. They have left Peter Obi. They are now supporting President Tinubu. We were joking before we came on here with my producer that this is the season of endorsement.
Maybe we would have Yoruba TV Presenters Association of Nigeria endorse Asiwaju. Igbo presenters will endorse Peter Obi. But seriously speaking, Honorable, are you not worried that Isa El – Buba, a man of such standing, I know he is a passionate speaker? Why? What happened?
I know you are from the south-west and the famous Yoruba adage says 20 friends cannot play together for 20 years. We just agreed before this question that 24 hours is a long time in politics how much more three and a half years. A whole lot of things would have happened. Politics is a free transfer season. The league just started in Europe and I’m sure you know that some players switched clubs. So too in politics. But for every El Buba lost, there are about, probably five other El Bubas that have now joined the Obi train.
For instance, in the last election cycle, the Kwankwasiya group was not with Peter Obi and you can only underestimate them at your own peril. Some people have said, no, it’s Kano and even in Kano, we are going to take it from him. I saw a video of another state and the crowd was massive. When you have an ace in a game of cards, you don’t throw up all your aces. You keep it close to your chest. There are certain other people who have joined in. But more importantly, we have won more Nigerian followers, the ordinary Nigerians, as a result of the poor showing of the current administration and I think they are much more important than any individual figure.
Are you serious about this, Hon? Because beyond Isa El Buba, which is very recent, back then, I mean, you and I have discussed this a couple of times, Peter Obi, some of his strongest allies, Valentine Ozigbo, Kenneth Okonkwo, who would lay his life down. And I’m not taking you to the place where you start commenting about them. My mission is not to create issues with anybody but I’m just saying, some of these main backers of Peter Obi, Kenneth Okonkwo, Valentine Ozigbo even though he would say he has not left Peter Obi, what’s his name now, Chris Uwankobia, he was here saying all sorts of things. He says he still loves Peter Obi and all of that. And then, you know, I could mention, go on and on. Has Peter Obi still, has he lost some of his stardust, some of his halo? You know, that thing about the head of Jesus Christ, you know, that makes him different. Has Peter Obi not lost his halo?
You know, in politics, the only currency, the only currency that matters in politics is votes.
Absolutely.
I’d like you to do a background check on some of these individuals you’ve mentioned, and then try to educate me regarding the number of votes they’ve attracted into the basket from their own polling unit. I’m not talking about their ward, from their own polling unit, how many votes.
I didn’t even mention Peter Obi’s VP last election, Dr Ahmed, who sat with me, I’m sure you’ve seen the video, you know, brilliant man. Yes, I agree with you that at the end of the day, it boils down to number of actual votes, you know, that each of these contributes, but beyond votes, my brother, is the power of influence. People associate a brand with another strong brand, to say, if these two strong brands come together, I might pivot, I might consider them.
That’s part of brand equity, building a strong brand. So Datti and Peter Obi coming together is a strong brand. But now Datti is saying that he does not trust Peter Obi, that he can fit the shoes of Tinubu.
Again, Datti Baba Ahmed, nice gentleman, I can always give him his flowers, but politically speaking, and talking brands, can you compare a Datti Baba Ahmed brand and a Rabiu Musa Kwankwaso brand? Which will you go for if you’re a practical politician?
You have a point.
So, the fact that Datti does not feature in this current mix, does not make him an enemy.
No, he is not an enemy. He said so.
Yes, he’s not. He’s not. He’s still one of us. He said so, definitely. He’s still one of us. I think in an earlier interview, some people tried to cast him as having said certain unsavory things about Mr Peter Obi, but I’m glad that he walked back on it. So, without taking anything away from him, he’s a polished, fine gentleman. But, going into the 2027 elections, we need some brain and brawn, especially up north. And I am sure we have somebody who can lead that charge.
In Rabiu Musa Kwankwaso, His Excellency.
Can Musa Kwankwaso deliver? Can he deliver Kano State?
We are looking beyond Kano. We are looking beyond Kano. Most of the Talakawas in northern Nigeria look up tIn who? o him. And if you put Musa Rabiu Kwankwaso against any politician from the north, living..
.. one hundred talakawas?
Yes. Any politician from the north, eighty of them will go for him.
What gives you this assurance, confidence?
You know the living politicians. Name them…
Of course. Atiku Abubakar…
No. We know the elites. The elites are different from the talakawas. Maybe you font know the meaning. I’m talking about the ordinary northerners just like you talk about the ordinary Nigerians of southern extraction. Who will they go for? It is a Mr Peter Obi. But the elite may go for Bola Ahmed Tinubu because as far as they are concerned, he can do deals. Ordinary people don’t do deals, what require are good roads to travel on, cheaper transport costs, easy food to buy at cheaper costs, pay their rents and have some money to pay fees for their children. Not to talk of healthcare. Are any of these readily available to the common Nigerian? I tell you, I’m sure you have seen videos where Nigerians spent two, three nights on the road travelling from Lagos to Benin around Okada, Ore. From Benin to Asaba, around Agbor. From Benin to Warri, they sleep on the road. From Abuja through Kogi onto Auchi, Uromi, they sleep on the road. If you have that experience three months to an election, will you vote for the person who was supposed to fix that road? I don’t want to go into other areas.
Today, how much is the cost of fuel? In some places, 1400, 1440. Some, depending on what part of the country you’re living, even up to a thousand, five hundred. And you think Nigerians will be happy? I did a random check. A litre of fuel in Iran in naira terms costs N38, same litre in Libya costs N32, in Saudi Arabia N823, in Nigeria, at the time I did this last week, N1300. Now what is the minimum wage? These 4 are oil producers. The minimum wage in Iran translates to N165,000, in Libya N210, 000, in Saudi Arabia, N1.4million. In Nigeria, N70, 000.
Now, how many liters of fuel does this translate to? In Iran, it will buy 4,342 litres, in Libya 6,562 litres, in Saudi Arabia it will buy 1, 700 litres of fuel but guess what? In Nigeria it can only purchase 46 litres of fuel at N1300. Now, it has diminished. So, these are lived experiences. Four oil producing nations. And it goes beyond the cost of a litre of fuel because for every increase in a litre of fuel, it translates to increase in transportation costs. It translates to increase in the price of foodstuffs. It translates to increase in your house rent. It translates to increase in even school fees, even health care, everything.
And you think that because we see…In fact we have so impoverished the people that we call them out for so-called political campaigns, which to my mind are mere jamborees because as soon as the big men come, in 30 minutes the party is over. He just announced some stipends you are going to give them and you disappear. Whether it gets to them or not, nobody cares. We all saw the first lady, at least she did two rounds in Owerri, Imo State and Awka, Anambra State just barely four days back. And she said that she was going to add N100,000 to each of the 2,500 women that were there. She did the same gesture in Anambra and said she was taking it around the states.
That’s 36 states plus Abuja, 37. At that cost, it would translate to N9,250,000 billion for one round. And remember she has done it before. Why are Nigerians not asking where is the money coming from? Is this coming from private pockets? If it is, she should tell us. And I would like to know how much tax she is paying on it. If it is appropriated, we should know what subhead are these sums of money coming from. Because she used the pejorative term, I will add. And that should presuppose that you are taking money from your pocket. So where did she ggetN9.25 billion to share to how many women?
To be fair, when this question was broached earlier on, maybe last year, she had said it is the New Era Foundation and all of that. And that is donations from good-spirited Nigerians, perhaps such as yourself and all of that.
Can the New Era Foundation be glad enough and law abiding enough to make details of their finances public? That’s what happens in advanced democracies.
Let’s go back to the issue of the most preferred northern politician. I can’t let that go. So, I am asking you directly, Hon Afam, are you saying Musa Kwankwaso can even win Kano? I am asking you again, can Musa Kwankwaso deliver Kano to Peter Obi in 2027?
You see, the problem we have is elite stereotypes. I will come to the northern part. In the south-east, how many elites are with Mr. Peter Obi? How many were with him, how many are still with him, the elites? You can barely count on your fingertips. Now, let me go to your question. How many northern elites were with Muhammad Buhari in all his political struggles? He drew his strength from the people. The ordinary people. The biggest names you could see and hear around Muhammad Buhari; Buba Galadima, the former late Chief of Staff, Abba Kyari.
..Babachir Lawal, Abubakar Malami, Adebayo Shittu..
…And these were not people at the time that you could consider of political heavyweights, of substance. You could not. But, he had the people. Now, fast forward to today. I told you earlier, when I made the distinction between talakawas and the elites. That is simply what I mean. No doubt about it, Alhaji Atiku Abubakar has played at the topmost level. And that is where he rolls. That is where he knows people. You have not seen Alhaji Rabiu Musa Kwankwaso move. If you see him, you will know that he connects with the ordinary people. And these are the people with the votes. Forget the optics.
You know, we like too much of optics. In Ogbaru, my strength is not derived from the elite. Much as they support me, you won’t see them come to the field to stand side by side with me. I don’t go with any security. Any community I enter, the youths are my security. Anywhere. Not just now, even in my first tenure. So, it is the number of people that believe in you that matters. All these elites’ theories are old school. They don’t work anymore. If they were working, how come the PDP, with all the heavyweights, were so easily decimated? If it were the ordinary people in PDP, members, that were to vote, to take a stand, where PDP would be, I’m sure you know that the party would have survived all these elite struggles. So, it’s not about the elites, it’s about the people.
Okay. I love that you’re people-centered in your thinking. And your arguments are centred around people, the way they think. Now, the only candidates, at least, who is speaking to the people. And to the yearnings, the pains of the people, who is proferring solutions to address the sufferings of the people. And guess what? The major suffering of the people that I have come to address here is this issue of fuel price at the pump. And I couldn’t agree more with you, my brother Afam. That is a major catalyst for either economic prosperity or doom. That one single decision has plunged the economy southward, ruined lives. Anybody can keep deceiving themselves. Only Atiku has said, I would restore subsidy. Peter Obi, Tinubu, Atiku, 2023-2023 said, we would remove it. But now, having seen the effect three years and a half. Atiku has said boldly, I will return it. And when he made that announcement, it was like an earthquake. Everywhere reverberated. But Peter Obi is still saying, no, I will still remove it. But I will tinker with it and all of that. Do you know how many northern youth are running around with this Atiku statement? Whether it is a gimmick, whether it is a what, I don’t know. Can you speak to this?
You know, there are politicians who approbate and reprobate almost in same breath. Mr Peter Obi, for as long as I have known him, and that is going upwards of 20 years, he is not one who easily eats his words. And that is why, no matter the political currency such a statement would bring, he’s hesitant to go that route. Now, this is not the first time we are seeing fuel price increases. But every increase has come with a measure of palliative for the people. So when Mr Peter Obi tells you that he will tinker with it, he knows what he is talking about. But we are also in a clime where you are compelled to break down and arrive at a certain solution. And before you leave that studio, somebody has copycatted it and is now passing it off as his or her idea.
I do know that the subsidy regime under a Peter Obi presidency would work for all Nigerians. Now, what do we have? We have a situation where we are supposed to have saved huge sums of money, and we have saved. From sharing about 700-800 billion naira at FAAC monthly, we now do 2.5 – 3trillion. And so, every state now has about four or five times what they used to have. How come the work rate is not commensurate with what they are now receiving? Under our government as NDC, there will be a buffer. The expense of subsidy removal will be ameliorated for the lowest of the low.
You said Rabiu Kwankwaso, a great politician. I agree. He is a master of the game of politics, with the red cap, the Kwankwasiya movement and all of that. I haven’t seen anything like that since the days of Aminu Kano. Buhari had such cult like following that encompassed the entire northern region, not just Kano. But Musa Kwankwaso’s huge following, allegedly, is limited to Kano. But then, the Kano politics, as we speak here, is not the same. The dynamics have changed since 2023. Just 3 years ago. The governor that Kwankwaso helped to install, Abba Yusuf, is no longer with him. He has joined APC. Former chairman of APC, former governor and former deputy governor to Kwankwaso, Umar Ganduje, is in APC. I could give you a long list. How are you even sure, I’m asking you again, that Kwankwaso will be able to deliver Kano to Peter Obi. Let alone states puts ode of Kano?
Out of your long list, you ended up mentioning two persons, the current governor Yusuf and the former governor Ganduje.
Deputy Senate president.
Who produced these two men?
Kwankwaso.
If Kwankwaso could produce a Ganduje 30 years ago. If Kwankwaso, against all odds, against federal might, could produce a governor Yusuf, who told you that for every one of them he cannot produce another 50 or 100? For every one of them. Why did they allow themselves to be produced by Kwankwaso? There were other big political players in Kano. Kano has never been short of politicians.
Ibrahim Shekarau, former governor, is with APC now. Who actually unseated Kwankwaso as governor.
But you know what happened.
Election happened. Democracy happened.
More democracy is going to happen.
What other states will Kwankwaso deliver for Peter Obi in 2027, apart from Kano?
When we mention Kwankwaso, Kwankwaso is just a linchpin calculation. Have you heard of Senator Kabiru Marafa?
Yes, Zamfara. Former senator from Zamfara.
Do you know Marafa’s standing with the people of Zamfara? Try and watch his last video, just yesterday or two days ago. Marafa has been a people’s man. So when I talk about Kwankwaso, it’s like we talk about Mr. Peter Obi. But Mr. Peter Obi is not going to be everywhere. We also have people, you know, in the different states. So we have. .
I know you have Aisha Binani, former governorship candidate…
You are the one beginning to mention them and you know that these are key players in their own right.
But how far can they go?
How far can they go? Which fact diminishes Binani in Adamawa? Which fact diminishes Marafa in Zamfara and the other candidates that we have?
Okay, let’s make progress. There was a tense situation last week that almost degenerated into something potentially dangerous for this country’s democracy. When Mr. Peter Obi arrived at the Makurdi airport to visit the Yelwata community where there was a massacre like a year or two ago. And then his entourage, as they were leaving the airport into town, en route to Yelwata, you see youths of Makurdi condone off the road, that they wouldn’t pass. And they were wielding dangerous weapons of all sorts. Dangerous weapons.
And some of the youths accompanying Mr. Peter Obi were saying, no, we’ll go, we’ll do this. But, mercifully, Mr. Peter Obi did not, you know, accede to their egging him to go onand all of that. What’s your opinion? You saw it definitely.
For me, I will be a little circumspect in talking about the matter. Maybe because the man at the helm in Benue State is a reverend father. And I know the intersection between religion, governance, and the people and the state. I easily remember the late Cardinal Jaime Sin of the Philippines, the People Power Revolution of 1986, where a cardinal, a Catholic cardinal, with the moral and religious authority, stood before armed tanks with the people marching with him. They not only stopped the tanks in their tracks, they caused an overthrow of that Marcos regime. I remember the late Archbishop Desmond Tutu, and several others, including all the popes who have held moral authority over the world. And so, for anybody coming from that stock, you would expect something different.
If for nothing, a pro-people kind of personality. When you talk about youths of Makurdi, I watched that clip several times. I didn’t see youths of Benue or Makurdi. I saw Reverend father Hyacinth Alia’s goons, thugs, misguided special assistants, along with some bouncers who are professional bodyguards.
You know this for a fact?
They pinpointed them and showed them. And then, even we are Makurdi youths, they would be in their thousands. Not about 100 people we saw in that video. But I’m not too surprised because as a student of contemporary Nigerian history, when I learned that a reverend father was on the ballot, I took interest. But I also found out early enough, that though I’m a Catholic, he breached the first rule of his calling, obedience. That’s the first rule.
Obedience to?
Obedience to the church authority and ultimately to God. When an ordained priest kisses the ring of the cardinal, he’s submitting to his authority. But here was a reverend gentleman who did not seek permission to go into the secular world of politics from his superior, the Catholic bishop of Gboko.
And because he did that, on May 20th, 2022, the bishop caused a letter to be written, suspending him from his priestly duties. Because he had gone ahead to purchase an expression and nomination form for the APC primaries without authority of the Catholic hierarchy. So if he did that at the very beginning, it was only time that will tell how he would probably end up.
I was in Makurdi about six weeks back and ask anybody from Benue, the Reverend Father Hyacinth Alia is now more infamously known for having adult replicas of himself strolling all over Government House, Makurdi.
How do you mean? Adult replicas of himself? How do you mean?
Ask people from Benue. I’m not from Benue. I just visited and I was…
So are you alleging or alluding to the fact that maybe the state is not functioning, or governance is not going on, or it is not happening?
No, no. You asked me a question and I’m answering you. So in the instance case, he told us all on national television that he wasn’t aware of Mr. Peter Obi’s visit. First, no Nigerian, no matter your situation in life, requires a visa or the permission of any authority to visit any part of this country.
It’s unknown to law. But Mr Peter Obi took the precaution. At least his party members that we are going to escort him to Yelwata, by writing to the police. He wasn’t going to visit Father Alia. He wasn’t there on a political courtesy visit. So there was no point. And by his itinerary, he had only one hour to spend in the place. So for Father Alia to say he wasn’t aware that Mr. Peter Obi was coming, how come his special assistant, youths, and all the thugs and goons were aware that Mr. Peter Obi was coming? Who told them? Was it the police? And if the governor says he wasn’t aware, then he’s not the chief security officer of that state, because every morning he receives security briefing.
..because the Peter Obi team said they wrote the director DSS of Benue State, the commissioner of police, Benue State, they were all aware, they were written formally…
And as soon as they got this, it appears in the governor’s security briefing.
Absolutely.
And they weren’t going to politicise the visit by visiting the governor. I’m happy that the elders of Yelwata have met, apologised to Mr. Peter Obi, and re-extended an invitation. For God’s sake, this is a state that everybody else sympathises with, over the level of insurgency and the banditry that they’ve had to face, even before the coming of Governor Alia, who as one of his campaign promises did say that in 100 days he was going to remove all of them from the internally displaced persons camps and return them to their homes. Now, the IDPs appear to be more secured than other Benue indigenous. But the good thing about that incident, for every occurrence I try to look at the bright side.
And the bright side for me is that at least people of Benue can sleep easy. But if insurgents were to come into their land again, Reverend Father Alia has youths that would stand up to them.
You think so? Interesting. So that’s a major takeaway from that.
Yes. He has trained enough youths that can confront them.
Well, I think the one thing we can say definitely about this is that the police in the state arrested some individuals and paraded them. We don’t know whether they are actually the people but the police arrested people.
Did they show you their faces?
No. I didn’t see their faces. They just showed their backs.
Okay, Mr. Peter Obi, we’re winding down now. Mr. Peter Obi, last cycle, 2022-2023, his major campaign mantra has been moving Nigeria from consumption to production. And at the Port Harcourt NBA conference, one of the presidential candidates took him on. In fact two of them took him on. Omoyele Sowore took him that he is a failed governor and all of that but we are not going into that. But Adewole Adebayo of the SDP stood up at that that Port Harcourt NBA conference and said I’m the only one who is producing anything here, among all these my fellow candidates. I have a farm. I produce and I export farm produce. And he’s not talking about a small farm. He’s talking about a farm of commercially viable status. And he challenged Mr. Peter Obi that why all these brilliant ideas turning Niger State into bigger than Belgium, rice and all that, why didn’t he do it when he was governor? I’ve asked some of Mr. Peter Obi’s surrogate or allies here. They’ve not given me a satisfactory answer. Why has Mr. Peter Obi not practiced being a producer of goods, industries, farms? This consumption to production, why has he not himself, why is he waiting to be president? He was governor, why didn’t he do it? He’s one of the largest importers of finished products into Nigeria. Why has he not done it personally?
A long time ago, as a reporter in Vanguard newspapers, that must be some 30 years ago, I had a cause to interview the late Dr. Tai Solari. In fact, he allowed me the grace of riding with him in his 504 to the new flat where government had given him in Ikoyi. The story I wrote therefrom led the Saturday Vanguard. That was when these weekend editions were being introduced. I think it was the third edition of the Saturday Vanguard at the time. It led the paper. My summation was that Tai Solari had left the people because he lived in Gbagada and joined the bourgeois in Ikoyi.
He was given the flat because of the People’s Bank?
Yes, because he had just been appointed chairman of People’s Bank.
I wanted that context.
So, in his right of reply, he praised my power of recall because I described everything in the room. He even opened his wardrobe. I counted everything. He only quarreled with the summation. And he used one word that has etched in my memory that the salvation of the slum-dweller does not lie in a fellow slum-dweller. That to me was and still is very profound.
So, Mr. Peter Obi does not need to be a farmer or an industrialist to lead Nigeria. In fact, no previous leader of Nigeria minus Obasinjo, who owns the Obasinjo Farms. But he wasn’t elected president of Nigeria because of Obasinjo Farms. What Mr. Peter Obi is talking about is providing the right atmosphere for businesses to thrive. Mr. Peter Obi is not talking about production to consumption, from consumption to production because of himself. He’s an already made man, a billionaire in all leading currencies of the world, be it dollars, pounds, euro, and I don’t know if you could even convert it to yen or the Chinese RMB.
So, Mr. Peter Obi is not in this fight for himself. He has seen the opportunities available and he wants to use the background that he has come, the wealth he has created from the financial sector, and the benefit of attending courses in all the top business schools in the world to transform the Nigerian economy. So, people who easily say, why are you not into production, we cannot all be into production. In fact, you can even be a teacher and lead Nigeria, so long as you have the will first and foremost. If you have the will and then the right policies with the right people to implement them, you’re high and dry.
I would concede that your argument sounds very convincing. On the surface, though.
On the surface?
On the surface, because in the neck of the wood where I come from, we have a proverb that says that if somebody says I’ll make a cloth for you, if you tell me that you’ll make a cloth for me, I’ll be so happy. I’ll go and tell my people because I love what you’re wearing.
It is one of my father’s numerous sayings. Butq if I even follow that argument, Mr. Peter Obi is a creator of wealth. From nothing. From university days.
No, don’t say from nothing. His father was a rich man.
No, he didn’t…
Peter Obi comes from wealth. He comes from wealth.
He’s an Igbo man. His elder brother is 75. Yes, so the father’s wealth is not his. We are Igbos. I have an elder brother. Whatever is there, be it ancestral lands, it does not belong to me. If I want to build a house, he gives me a portion. I dare not extend beyond what he has given to me. Mr. Peter Obi is self-made.
No, I disagree with you. He’s not self-made. He came from a relatively well-off family. That gave him an advantage.
No, no, no. His family was nowhere in mention in the Southeast We know families that were mentioned. They were not poor.
But what I’m telling you is that how many university students go into trading on their own accord? So if he has created wealth from that time, why wouldn’t he create wealth for the Nigerian people? He doesn’t have to be a farmer to do that.
Like I’ve said to some of Peter Obi’s allies, I admire the man.
He proudly tells you he’s a trader.
I admire the man greatly for many reasons. Austere lifestyle, fiscal discipline.
And those are virtues we need to lead in this country. You must lead by example.
Some are alleging hypocrisy in some of these mantras. I no dey give shishi. There’s a recent one now that almost escaped my mind.
Can you attribute the idea of I no dey give shishi to Mr. Peter Obi?
He’s the one who popularised that he doesn’t give money to anybody and all of that.
No. It was his followers because he says he’s not going to play money politics that coined that term. That does not mean that he doesn’t spend money for important things.
Of course, he gives the money to schools, hospitals…
But apart from even that, even in his political journeys, are you saying that he flies an aircraft from point A to B, he won’t pay for it?
Of course he will.
And then people travelling with him?
Of course they do.
There are costs to bear.
Now, some are saying, because I’ve seen videos of Mr. Peter Obi saying well, I only have one wristwatch. In fact, these days I notice I don’t see him with wristwatches. Or I have a pair of black shoes. I don’t need more than that. Some are saying it’s hypocritical and it’s just for the click lights, you know, cameras. Lere Olayinka, spokesperson to FCT minister, Nyesome Wike, published a picture where Mrs. Peter Obi, Margaret, if I’m right?
Yeah, Margaret Peter Obi.
She was carrying a Hermes bag. My brother, Hon. Afam?
Well, my father told me that if a man spends 20 years practicing to be mad. How many years will he exhibit the madness before death comes calling? I told you I’ve known Mr. Peter Obi up close for close to 20 years. So if Mr. Peter Obi is hypocritical or he’s acting, then he must be a damn great Hollywood act. But somebody has been consistent, even as governor. He got some of us worried. At some point, I told him in a meeting while I was in the House of Representatives, Your Excellency, you have done what you should do for us by helping us win elections. I don’t need you to give me money but when you’re in town, we should visit you like my colleagues visit their leaders. At the time, 2011 to 2015, current President Tinubu dare not come to Abuja and anybody who was of ACN stock would not go to that place, even only to just sit down, praying that Bola Tinubu passes by and sees him.
If you don’t go, you are considered as being disloyal. Mr. Peter Obi didn’t care about that. He said, you people have been elected, do your work. Yes, at Protea, Asokoro, at a meeting of Anambra Stsate representatives with him. So, if he has held on to that notion of an austere life, and some of us have tried to copy it, I don’t fly business class, I can’t pay with my money. Because my reasoning is, if I’m going to fly economy for 130,000 naira, and business class is 250,000, I have probably 120,000. If I share that money, 5,000, 10,000, to some youths and women in my constituency, I feel more fulfilled. And at any rate, to come down from the same aircraft, the same person that is sitting in business class will go and wait for his or her luggage. Mine might come out earlier. That’s if I even checked in a luggage. If I didn’t, I’d just pick my handbag and move on. So, what is the benefit? So, by solid personal example, the man has led the way.
Now, let me come to the her excellency, Margaret Peter Obi you spoke about. Thank God you know that she’s a woman of poise and elegance. Mr. Peter Obi has told you that nobody can live his lifestyle. He doesn’t compel you to live his lifestyle. And I’m Igbo. Go and check the contemporary history of Igbo men. Our wives are our pride. Back in the days, an Igbo man would patch his trousers several times over. But when you see the wife turn up to go and attend a meeting, you will know that that’s the wife of an Igbo man.
Mr. Peter Obi has never pretended. He didn’t swear to any oath of poverty. He’s rich in the major currencies of this world. And to take the argument further, has Margaret Peter Obi held any public office? So why would anybody cry that somebody is spending money? Do you know if it is even her money? Because she also runs part of his business since he’s busy. So if she runs the business and she gets her own part of the shareholding dividends, a woman will use her money on herself. And that should not cause any hoopla.
I can’t fault that. She doesn’t hold any public office. I just told you of somebody whose husband is in office and is doling out money like confetti and nobody is raising an eyebrow.
I can’t fault your argument.
Please they should allow Margaret Peter Obi breathe and enjoy her life.
Honorable, I think it would not be fair if I don’t allow you to respond to your former friend and colleague, Barrister Kenneth Okonkwo, who said your principal, Mr. Peter Obi, is a content creator. I don’t want you to disparage, no disparaging comments. Just respond to that.
No, he is not my former friend. He remains my friend. Political seasons will come. But for my brother, Kenneth Okonkwo, to describe Mr. Peter Obi in such infantile times is unbecoming. These are people born within the same decade. Mr. Peter Obi, 1961. Kenneth Okonkwo, 1968. So maybe about seven years gap. But I’m sure you cannot put both of them on any pedestal. They are miles, miles, miles away. Mr. Peter Obi, through the dint of hard work, personal sacrifice, he is an acclaimed billionaire. Like I pointed out earlier, he has become governor, two-time governor of Anambra State, a leading presidential candidate, one that many still hold the view ought to be Nigeria’s president. On the flip side, my friend Kenneth Okonkwo is a failed House of Representatives aspirant. He now has a new calling as a spokesman for different leading political figures that he at different times had disparaged. But talking about content creation, I think its just malice. Across Mr. Peter Obi’s social media handles, he has people miles, miles, miles away from the kind of followers that Mr. Kenneth Okonkwo can ever command in three lifetimes. So maybe he’s sad that even in his field of content creation, which is what he does when he speaks about any political figure, that Mr. Peter Obi is also taking the cake and the flowers from him.
But in Igbo land, he said that when a child gathers more firewood than his age bracket, they will say he gathered his from an evil forest. So I think that he’s just mere jealousy, and we’ll just leave it at that.
Well, I won’t dabble in between friends and brothers, so I’ll just leave that to you guys to sort yourselves out. As we wind down now, do you believe any of these presidential candidates, Peter Obi, Atiku, Donald Duke, Omoyele Sowore, Adewole Adebayo, do you think any of them individually, as it is, can defeat President Bola Tinubu next year, January, except they come together?
No, even if they don’t come together. Like I said in my last answer, majority, even though there has not been any opinion poll on that, but even outside Nigeria, the greater feeling is that Mr. Peter Obi won. And at a time he had not even one councilor. Today we have about 20 House of Representatives members. He has not less than seven, eight senators. He has state assembly members, and he has fresh entrants into his party and those seeking elective office who are hoping to benefit from the,the momentum of the last elections. So, Mr. Peter Obi is poles ahead in winning this election. And like I told you, I remember the late Professor Ali Mazrui of a triple heritage, the famous Kenyan Africanist who said, while the rest of the world are working hard to put men and machines in outer space, Africans, and in this instance, Nigerians, are finding it difficult to even get to their villages from the little towns that they reside in. And that was why I told you we have people sleeping on our roads, who go through all those harrowing experiences. We are talking about 15 is it trillion or how many coastal road projects that comes with different, no appropriation and all of that. Meanwhile, Nigerians can’t even get to their villages in peace, and you think they will reward the current President with their votes?
You know, you politicians are saying Mr President is not popular, northern lecturers just endorsed him. A group called northern lecturers just endorsed him. Like I told you, the charismatic bishops just endorsed him. Clerics are going all over the place. Do you even think that clerics should get involved in all this endorsements?
Well, first and foremost, they are human beings. They shepherd over a flock and from where I stand as a Christian, we are told that the people will rejoice when the righteous are on the throne. I don’t think that any shepherd should sit back and not take an interest in who rules the people because the ill effects bounces on them. People will always come for spiritual and physical rejuvenation. So, they must but not in the endorsements that we see now. When you say a group of Northern lecturers, I wonder, do they have a CAC registration?
Like ASUU, NANS and others?
Anybody can put together any group.
What are the top 3 issues that will shape the campaign next year? That’s will persuade voters to vote one way or the other?
Insecurity, cost of living and the rule of living crisis.
Standard of living, poverty and all of that?
Yes. That’s cost of living. It affects every garment of life. And then the use of anti-corruption agencies for the whims and caprice of those currently in power.
Do you believe INEC can deliver? At least from Osun election…
INEC has never wanted to deliver. The people will compel them.
You also believe that the peoples power will prevail…
Yes. In Osun, it was the Peoples power.